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December 4, 2008
The Cluster Bomb Treaty
OSLO, Norway (AP) -- Ninety-three countries signed a treaty banning cluster bombs Thursday, as diplomats accepted the wishes of victims who begged them to bar the weapons that kill and maim civilians long after the conflicts end.Some of the world's top military powers -- including the U.S., Russia and China -- refused to attend, arguing cluster bombs have legitimate military uses, such as repelling advancing troop columns.
"We're of course disappointed by the states that did not show up here in Oslo," said Steve Goose, the arms director of Human Rights Watch. "They're on the wrong side of history. Some of them are clinging to what is now a widely discredited weapon."
Under the accord, negotiated in May, signatories agreed not to use cluster bombs, to destroy existing stockpiles within eight years, and to fund programs that clear old battlefields of dud bombs.
Grrrrr
They may has well just call it the "Screw the United States Treaty" for what it amounts to.
What I want to know is after they're done here if these brave souls will push for a ban on suicide bombers. Call me crazy, but I'm not going to hold my breath for that one.
These people suffer from a case of serious moral confusion.
It's all so typical. Here we have the mad mullahs of Iran working feverishly to obtain nuclear weapons, and when they get enough of them they'll probably nuke Israe. We have terrorists the world over building heaven knows how many suicide vests and car bombs to kill thousands of innocents. Fidel Castro wannabe Hugo Chavez seeks dictatorial powers, is arming himself to the teeth with Soviet weapons, is tied to the FARC terrorists in Columbia, and is cozying up to Iran. Hugo Chavez wannabe Evo Morales would make himself a dictator if he could. Pakistan is turning out terrorists by the thousands from it's madrassas, and the Saudis sending forth cadres with zillions of dollars to take over and radicalize Mosques the world over, China wants to take over Taiwan and seeks hegemony in the south-west Pacific. The Russians seem not to know the Cold War is over as they continue to modernize their ICBMs and develop modern warheads. They're doing business with Iran and want their empire back. Did I miss anything?
Yes I did; the United Nations has no agreed upon definition of "terrorism."
It's true. You'd think terrorism would be pretty easy to define. We all know it when we see it. So why can't we get a definition that will satisfy everyone? Eye on the UN has the story:
The definitional impasse has prevented the adoption of a Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism. Even in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 the UN failed to adopt the Convention, and the deadlock continues to this day.The prime reason is the standoff with the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC). It seeks to insert into the Convention: "The activities of the parties during an armed conflict, including in situations of foreign occupation....are not governed by this Convention." Or, as the Pakistani delegate describes the standoff on behalf of the OIC, there is a need "to make a distinction between terrorism and the exercise of legitimate right of peoples to resist foreign occupation." In October 2007 the Coordinator of the informal negotiating meetings which had been organized "to move the process forward" circulated a document in which she named the outstanding issues. The OIC demand was on the top of the list, namely, "the importance not to affect the exercise of the right of peoples to self-determination."
The Arab Terrorism Convention and the Terrorism Convention of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) define terrorism to exclude armed struggle for liberation and self-determination. This claim purports to exclude blowing up certain civilians from the reach of international law and organizations. It is central to interpreting every proclamation by the states which have ratified these conventions in any UN forum purporting to combat terrorism.
in other words, they want to be able to claim that Palestinian is not terrorism. In fact, I think they want to be able to claim that any Muslim terrorism that suits their purposes is not terrorism. And no doubt they want a definition that allows them to brand Israel, and, when it suits them the United States, as terrorist countries.
But no, to this bunch it's much more important to go after a weapon that is important to the United States.
The group behind it all is one called the Cluster Munition Coalition. From their website, here are the ones who have signed
Albania, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bahrain, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Chad, Chile, Comoros, Republic of Congo, Cook Islands, Costa Rica, Côte d'Ivoire, Croatia, Czech Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Holy See, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Kenya, Kyrgyzstan, Lao PDR, Lebanon, Lesotho, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia (FYR), Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mexico, Moldova, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Norway, Palau, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Portugal, Qatar, Samoa, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Serbia, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sudan, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Tanzania, Timor-Leste, Togo, Uganda, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Venezuela and Zambia.
Here's the bottom line; when all hell breaks lose somewhere no one is going to rely on any of the nations listed above. Please don't bring up the UK or France; they couldn't even take care of Bosnia/Kosovo by themselves. Their military's are a hollow shell of what they were during the Cold War, and they were pretty small them.
No I am not saying that just because we're the United States we can do whatever we like. What I am saying is that treaties to ban specific weapons usually miss the point, and this one strikes far from the mark.
First, it's usually not the weapon but who's using it and how. Just as there are responsible and irresponsible use of firearms in the home, there are responsible and irresponsible use of cluster munitions. The US military only uses them to stop an advancing army. Israel, who also refused to sign, uses them because to lose a war means 6 million dead Jews. Further, we have worked hard to reduce the dud rate, which seems to be the biggest concern for those pushing this ban.
Therefore, if they wanted to set rules as to how cluster munitions could be used, or set an upper limit on their dud rate (and every weapon has a dud rate) that would be one thing, and that's an approach I agree with. We have rules with regard to civilian use of firearms; when you can use them in self-defense, and we ban certain types of guns like automatic weapons. We can do likewise with cluster bombs.
Second, of all the world's problems and things that ought to be banned cluster bombs falls pretty far down in my book. It's typical of the mindset that promotes this treaty to go after the United States and Israel (which is what they are doing), because they know we're law abiding nations. They won't go after nations that send forth terrorists because they know those nations will tell them to get lost. Oh, and direct some of the terrorists their way.
Look at the nations who refused to sign; the United States, Russia, China, Israel, India, Pakistan, and Finland.
These are all nations that have to take war seriously. Most the nations that signed don't, and the rest I think just wanted to stick their thumbs in the eyes of the great powers. That Finland refused to sign may strike one as odd, but as their defense chief told the Washington Times, "we would have risked having a significantly weaker and more expensive defense." He explained that without cluster munitions defending their border with Russia would exceed $1.2 billion, more than they could afford. Those who are unsure of why the Fins are so sensitive about this need only read about the "Winter War," when Stalin invaded their country in 1939.
I'm still waiting on the treaty to ban suicide attacks. I'll settle, though, for a meaningful UN definition of terrorism.
Posted by Tom at December 4, 2008 9:00 PM
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Comments
Tom,
I disagree w/ your reasoning on this issue. Either cluster bombs are a type of weapon that should be banned or not. Is it a weapon like poison gas or is it a diffferent type of weapon? Obviously the point is arguable from a military standpoint and I, for one, would like to listen to some an authority on weapons and warfare b/f I made a decision regarding banning them.
There is no question, however, that these weapons, like land mines, continue to threaten civilian populations after the cessation of hostilities.
Suicide bombing is behavioral. I think such behavior is completely irrational but I do not think it can be "banned." The production and use of weapons can be banned. I do not believe that behavior can be banned.
I cannot fail to stifle this perverse thought. Suppose a coalition of nations convened and resolved that suicide bombing should be banned b/c it is is antihumanitariian and viloates agreed norms of warfare. Would these nations then be condemned and casdtigated as being anti Islamic?
TLGK
Posted by: The Loop Garoo Kid at December 5, 2008 12:26 PM
Hi Loop
Sadly, you are probably right in your last point. Banning suicide vests or bombers would probably be attacked as anti-Islamic.
As for cluster munitions, if our military says we don't need them anymore, fine. But I'm not going to let a bunch of international do-gooders dictate policy to us.
The Cluster Munition Coalition wants to ban them because
Air-dropped or ground-launched, they cause two major humanitarian problems and risks to civilians. First, their widespread dispersal means they cannot distinguish between military targets and civilians so the humanitarian impact can be extreme, especially when the weapon is used in or near populated areas.Many submunitions fail to detonate on impact and become de facto antipersonnel mines killing and maiming people long after the conflict has ended. These duds are more lethal than antipersonnel mines; incidents involving submunition duds are much more likely to cause death than injury.
Dealing with the first, are we to ban all weapons that are indiscriminate? We still drop a lot of "dumb" bombs, and one can argue that even artillery shells are indiscriminate. Obviously we should work to make our weapons as precise as possible. There are limits, however, as to how far we can go. Further, as I said in my post, it is the policy of the United States to only use them in dire circumstances. If they want to make rules as to when they can be used, fine.
As for the second, all weapons have a dud rate. Not all missiles and bombs explode. As you surely know, they're still digging out shells from both world wars in Europe We've gotten the dud rate down on all weapons, but there will always be a percentage that fail to explode. Again, if they want set a percentage limit, I'm fine with that.
Then there's just the whole misguidedness of the "ban the cluster bomb" bunch. It's feelgoodism at it's worst. These groups always go after Western nations. It's like gun banners here at home. The only people affected by gun bans are people who are law-abiding citizens anyway. Further, it's not the guns, but the social pathologies in our society, that cause so much crime.
These are the same people, or mentality of the same people, who protested the Pershing II and GLCMs in the 1980s while ignoring the Soviet SS-20s. They spend their time protesting Western weapons while ignoring those of our enemies. It's the mentality of "moral purity," that says that unless we are perfect we have no moral authority to oppose communism/jihadism etc. It's the whole "we're good people because we're against cluster bombs!" business. Yeah, well how about feeling good about banning suicide bombers. Go to Tehran and make the case for that one there.
It's like those lefties who went to Baghdad right before our invasion to act as "human shields." They were oh-so-moral in their dedication to protect Iraqi hospitals etc from US bombing. Then, as soon as the insurgency started, they conveniently disappeared. It's the same mentality at work.
I hate to come across as so mean to these people, it's just their moral pontificating that gets me. I saw this during the Cold War. There is so much evil in the world and who do they concentrate on? The United States and Israel.
So it's like my comment about "banning suicide bombing." Yes, it's behavioral, but I still don't see why something can't be passed banning it. Just include language requiring sanctions against any nation or organization caught encouraging it. It'll never pass, but that's the point.
One can argue that "we banned chemical and biological weapons, why not these?" You're going to hate this, but I don't have so much problem with US chemical weapons as a counter to German nerve agents in WWII or against a Soviet invasion of Europe. Terrible stuff, I know.
Bottom line is it's not the weapon as who's using it, how, and for what purpose. A gun is good in the hands of a police officer or law abiding citizen, but that same gun is bad in the hands of a bank robber. Nuclear weapons are good in the hands of the US or Israel, bad in the hands of the current government of Iran. Ditto that analogy with just about anything else.
This doesn't give us carte blanche to use weapons any way we see fit. Our firebombing of Tokyo and Dresden in WWII was wrong. But those same incendiaries used against military targets, in a discriminate
and proportional
manner, would be acceptable to me.
You can have the last comment if you want it.
Posted by: The Redhunter
at December 6, 2008 8:38 PM
I agree w/ almost all of what you say. There are all sorts of weapons and of course you are correct regarding the ultimate issue which is, who controls them. Both us or all people who think like us are sanguine about the U.S. having a nuclear arsenal but will lie awake each and every night if a country or non governmental group whose citizens or members are will to be suicide bombers were to acquire a nuclear weapon.
That said, even though dumb bombs are non discriminatory and some fail to explode, land mines and cluster bombs seem to pollute former battlefields to a much greater extent than unexploded conventional ordinance.
If banned, perhaps they would not be used.
TLGK
Posted by: The Loop Garoo Kid at December 10, 2008 12:26 PM
On a related topic, Canadian Ezra Levant had this to say about the Land Mine Treaty:
One last point about [the Canadian Liberal / Socialist / Quebec Separatist Parties'] focus on banning certain munitions (such as landmines).
...Canada did indeed sign the international landmines treaty -- and even took a leadership role in producing the treaty.
But then (under the Liberals, when Lloyd Axworthy himself was Foreign Minister), Canada put a proviso on its signature: Canada would allow other nations to use landmines to protect us.
So we signed the treaty, swearing off landmines. And we issued countless statements condemning the Americans for not signing it.
But since we were going to Afghanistan, we made sure those bloodthirsty yanks could lay the landmines for us.
They did the "unethical" work for us. We took care of the self-righteousness.
http://ezralevant.com/2008/12/durban-ii-here-we-come.html
Posted by: The Foreigner at December 15, 2008 1:07 AM



