The Redhunter

snake hunter sez,

Propangandists will throw the 'racist' card if you insist on protecting our southern borders from "undocumented workers", coyotes, drug mules, thugs, people seeking a better life, etc

"Illegal" is a crime; amnesty nullifies it. reb
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Latinos are the best workers in the U.S., that means we should all be able to come here if we want

This Law Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Myth #4:"Rather, it is a reasonable step that gives Arizona police officers another tool in their toolbox when they come into contact with illegal aliens during their normal law enforcement duties."

..."Arizona police officers need the tool that S.B. 1070 provides."

When asked, Arizona Pima county Sheriff Dupnik called the bill "stupid", "racist and disgusting". He has been a cop for over 50 years. Fifteen-year Tucson police veteran Martin Escobar has filed a suit against the bill, claiming that having to wait for a call back from ICE to check on immigration status would impede investigations. This are not my concerns, these are the concerns of some police in Arizona. Others in Arizona say it will require increased paperwork, red tape dealing with ICE, and drain already strained financial and manpower resources.
The Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police opposes SB 1070 because the group says the law would hobble law enforcement's ability to "fulfill their many responsibilities in a timely manner."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/04/22/20100422arizona-immigration-bill-police-impact.html#ixzz0mWHaoGWE

A friend of mine was a police officer in an agricultural community in California (read: full of illegal migrant workers). He was frustrated by a lack of amnesty. Most of his traffic stops dealt with illegals, and he said he did not have the resources or know how to deal with waiting for ICE every time he pulled over an illegal without a license. Plus, he would have been fired because the political base in the town was farmers - if he had impounded all their farm trucks and sent all their workers packing, he would have quickly lost his job.

To me amnesty makes sense because it reflects reality. Most real-estate laws passed in the USA were simply a way of legalizing the illegal settlement of land which had occurred throughout the western states. These laws were drafted after people had made their claims, and was a way of having the laws reflect reality- because kicking settlers off illegally settled land was politically untenable. Today, the reality is that most of our food is picked by migrants. Wal-Mart hires 'contractors" to clean their buildings (and relive themselves of the legal burden of proving the immigration status of their workers). Watch a "Day without a Mexican", that is the reality of our economy. My feeling is that amnesty would reflect reality, and provide legitimate documentation for these people who currently live, work and pay taxes in the US.

Tom, you said, "If you don't like S.B.1070 that is fine, but tell me how you would end illegal immigration into this country another way".

I just can't see how SB1070 is going to even work. It is like closing the barn door after the horse escaped. When a cop calls ICE, is he going to be stuck hanging on the phone while other more serious crimes perpetrated by Anglos and Native-born residents or other illegals are occuring? Then he will get tied up transporting the illegal--to where?

Also, some rogue cops would be tempted to hassle people for sport. I know of one case, an American of indigenous descent (meaning short and dark skinned), who was stopped for no apparent reason over a year ago in a community near the border; of course he did not have a passport or his American birth certificate on his person. Which one of us does? Unless we plan to go to Canada or Mexico or overseas, we keep our documents in our safe deposit boxes like all other Americans.

He protested to the cop that he was born in Arizona and his mother was born in Texas. He was threatened with deportation because he didn't have his "papers" and he was "Mexican" and the proof was his "accent". He didn't have an "accent", it is the soft tone that I myself speak with, that many Asians and Native Americans and Hawaiians have when speaking. I am fluent mostly in English, but I guess my appearance makes people think I have an "accent" or that I might not speak English. Is that not profiling?

The few illegals deported this way would be back in three days or less. I know because decades ago when I worked in Northern California in a county hospital (private hospitals would refer them there), we were told to report all illegals getting care there to Immigration. I told one woman what I had to do, and she said, "go ahead and get me deported, I will be back in three days".

She was deported, then looked me up a week later to tell me she was back with her three children. She had been taken to the border by plane, accompanied by a female immigration officer who assisted her with her children, a waste of money and personnel. The whole thing was distasteful to me and to our providers on many levels. Eventually the requirment to report poeple to Immigration was lifted.

There already is a way to stem much of the illegal immigration that no one ever mentions--that is the E-Verify system that employers are supposed to use when foreign-born job applicants present "documentation" that most likely is fake.

Most employers confronted with the charge that they are using illegals simply say that "they showed me documentation" (fake green cards, etc). There is no regulation there, no verification, no follow-up. The government's excuse is that they don't have the personnel, so the use of illegals with "documentation" by employers never ends. It is the employers who should hang on the phone with ICE, and not a harried police officer.

Also, those illegals involved in the drug business don't seek real jobs, they just finance, supervise, organize the transport and delivery of the product and illegals by land, train, boat, and planes, and provide "security" for those involved, so the criminal element goes unregulated. The excuse of federal, state and local law enforcement is the same--lack of personnel, especially in this economy. We need to try to stop the demand on this side for drugs, too, but how?

Other illegal thugs just prey on their own people by kidnapping them for ransom, etc. as they do in Mexico. Groups of thugs in Mexico free their compatriots in Mexican jails leading to the assassination of many police there. This element is wiley, they don't look like your typical "Mexican illegal seeking work" they look more European or Middle Eastern, hairy, well-dressed and well-armed; they are not Muslims, they are the sons of the Spanish conquistadors from 15 generations ago who had more advantages but choose to take the criminal path to enrich themselves quicker than working in legal enterprises,

Also, charity groups like the one you joined recently in Gautemala help relieve for a time the horrid conditions of the poor, and bless you for not giving up, but who can improve conditions in those countries for the long term when they have corrupt military and government and US and foreign interests involved in commerce there? They don't have the respect for life there that the US has, but developed countries turn a blind eye to that in favor of the natural resources they can pull out for profit.

Also, as long as Americans themselves refuse to dig ditches, pick apples and grapes, slaughter and prepare livestock, clean, cook, nurse the elderly, etc. the jobs will continue to be filled by those aliens desperate enough to risk arrest and deportation.

We need to enforce the E-Verify system, and crack down on drug trafficking, so we must insist our government provide the personnel to do so. Giving sway to officials in a state that was the only one to refuse to honor Martin Luther King Day when it was declared nationally, will only create more problems and charges of racism and profiling. Even now, Arizonian officials are very divided on those issues and some have vowed to ignore SB1070. Are they then going to start using limited resources to arrest officials instead of illegals?

This SB 1070 will only catch a miniscule percent of illegals who will continue to return and will cause too much divisiveness due to, again, lack of personnel. Crackdown on employers to use the E-Verify system and bolstered immigration checks and added police to crack down on drug runners and other thugs would have better results than such a contentious law. We will have to wait to see what its effects are.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

Ah, nothing so brings out the comments like a post on a subject like this. I could get a dozen comments on each post if I became a Michelle Malkin and wrote nothing but "outrage of the day" posts. That won't happen, though, because it's not who I am.

Thank you all for your thoughts. Agree or no, I appreciate your taking time to leave them.

vivamexico123 - so it's ok to break the law as long as you are (allegedly) a hard worker?

jason - Here's the game; deliberately let illegals into the country and then claim that you have to have an amnesty because "oh gee, look at all these illegals. How did they get here? Can't send them home, we need an amnesty!" Here's an idea: Stop them at the border and then we wouldn't be in this boat.

You have also not addressed the issue of "entitlements." As it is Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are bankrupting us, and now we've got that ridiculous "stimulus" and ObamaCare. All of the entitlement programs have what they call "unfunded liabilities;" i.e. are projected to pay out much more in benefits than they will take in through taxes. How on earth do you plan on paying for all of these programs when you add poor people who will receive in benefits far more than they will pay in?

If you want to let massive numbers of Mexicans etc into this country then be honest and say that we should repeal our immigration law and revise the allowable number of people who can come in upward. I want Democrats in Congress to be honest and just propose that we change our immigration laws to "anyone can come in." Let's stop playing this game whereby we keep the immigration laws on the books but ignore them, and then have an amnesty every 20 years or so.

Emilie - An insightful comment. S.B.1070 might not work. I don't know that it will. What it represents, I think, is simple frustration at the situation. I share your views on E-Verify. Unfortunately, it is the business interests I mentioned at top that are keeping it from being implemented. The whole system is a mess, as you indicate. No one wants to address the issues head on: They won't change the current law to allow more people in, they won't enforce our current laws, they won't work to reform Mexico, Guatemala, etc, on and on.

Snake Hunter Sez,

The current adminisration would love to turn this into an emotional racial issue to secure the Latino vote for decades.

Senator McCain is correct; First, Secure The Southern Border. Then set about the business of creating a justice-based method of getting these hard-working people legal citizenship; they've earned it.

The 60 billion-dollar drug cartels drive the border wars and spill-over violence in Arizona.

Pima County Sheriff Dupnik has coined the word - Fornikaboobery - and the boobs in D.C. should be
relieved of command come November 2nd! - reb
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SECTION 1304(a) READS:

(a) Preparation; contents
The Attorney General and the Secretary of State jointly are
authorized and directed to prepare forms for the registration of
aliens under section 1301 of this title, and the Attorney General
is authorized and directed to prepare forms for the registration
and fingerprinting of aliens under section 1302 of this title. Such
forms shall contain inquiries with respect to (1) the date and
place of entry of the alien into the United States; (2) activities
in which he has been and intends to be engaged; (3) the length of
time he expects to remain in the United States; (4) the police and
criminal record, if any, of such alien; and (5) such additional
matters as may be prescribed.

SECTION 1306(e) DOESN'T EXIST

If you're going to cite law to back up your point make sure you check the articles first! You lose a lot of credibility with that!

Yes, Tom, like you said, "I share your views on E-Verify. Unfortunately, it is the business interests I mentioned at top that are keeping it from being implemented".

Yes, it is capitalism, the business interests, the law of supply and demand, the free trade, that cause business owners to ignore immigration laws. They have a demand for cheap labor, and poor aliens are desperate enough to risk all to supply that cheap labor. It is an abysmal mess.

One thing I forgot to mention, or to ask you about, in my previous post was what you meant when you said about states that were previously owned by Mexico: "Open borders ideologues. These folks think we stole land from Mexico (we didn't, Mexico never really owned it). These are the transnationalists who don't like traditional concepts of American power. They want to dilute our sovereignty and increase the power of international institutions. The racial solidarity crowd. Groups like La Raza typify this type".

What stood out in your statement was "Mexico never owned it". But all the Southwest, and Texas and California were Mexico. First, all that land was once claimed by the conquistadors for the King of Spain starting in the 1500s, then it became Mexico when Mexico gained its independence from Spain in 1821. Spain claimed all that land in the same manner that the first English colonists on the East Coast claimed the land for King George. All the world acknowledged this colonialism. No one bothered to register as aliens with the Indian Chiefs, so the chiefs declared war and lost.

Under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo the United States gained the land [from Mexico] that later became New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, California, Texas. That treaty was to transfer land that had been officially Mexican to the US. It was all as much Mexico as the original 13 colonies were the US.

What started this transfer of land was Mexico trying to gain back Texas after Texans, both American and Mexican (the stories of the Alamo are mythical), fought Mexico and made Texas an Independent Republic. That was in 1848. Mexico lost the war, and then decided to also cede California and Texas after agreeing to give up what is now Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada, Utah, etc. In one fell swoop, Mexico lost almost half its sovereign land. Later the Gadsden Purchase (land purchased from Mexico) moved the border even further South in order to allow the US to build railroads to the gold fields of California.

You only have to look at the place names starting with Colorado (red land), San Antonio (St. Anthony), Santa Fe (Holy Faith), Sacramento (Holy Sacrament), San Francisco (St. Francis), San Jose (St. Joseph) Los Angeles (City of the Angels) etc, and read their history to know that they were once Spain, then Mexico. There are surviving documents in the Spanish and Mexican Archives of Calfornia and New Mexico and Texas, etc. that state which country had jurisdiction there.

Yes, I know some members of a mythical group called La Raza (it doesn't exist except as a general loose term for Mexican-American advocacy groups, one vociferous one calling themselves by that name) have stated that the US "stole" Mexico, but it was not "stolen" any more than English colonists "stole" the 13 colonies, it was lost through wars and by treaty and purchases. They are correct when saying it really was Mexico. Mexico was too unstable in the 1800s to hold off invasion by a foreign power, didn't have the troops to protect such vast lands.

Not all Americans of Mexican descent approve of the term La Raza (which simply means 'the race', nor of being labeled Chicano, nor do they belong to groups advocating reconquest, etc. There are many dialects and cultures among them, and a group called La Raza does not represent everyone. You have idealogues on all sides, such as Nazi skin-heads and Black Separatists, etc. Groups like that arise out of fear and prejudice.

I myself descend from "Manitos", those descendants of 16th century Spaniards and Christianized Pueblo Indians who settled New Mexico in the 1500s and fought the Apaches and Navajos. "Manito" (or hermanito) was a term that the French and Spanish priests used meaning "brother in Christ". We have become more Americanized than Hispanized, having been officially Americans since the Treaty of Hidalgo, etc more than 150 years ago. We truly did not cross any borders as Europeans did---we have always been there.

Also, I have heard some Mexicans who have returned to Mexico after living and working here for years say that they wished the US had conquered all of Mexico in 1846, considering the conditions in Mexico now. I have heard Mexican Americans in Los Angeles complain about their former old neighborhoods turning into "little Mexico". Upwardly mobile people move out of barrios and ghettoes, and the undocumented move in.

My relatives in Texas are as fiercly Texan as any Anglo. After generations exposed to Anglos, they even speak with that Texan drawl and work in all the professions. Our native ancestry should not be held against us nor subject us to new Jim Crow laws. Short and dark, we are nonetheless as American and patriotic as the blue-eyed blonde descendants of King George.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

we as americans have drivers lic. we MUST show when asked. We have insurance MUST show when asked. We must have a caR INSPECTION IF NOT SEE ABOVE AND YES WE DO NEED INSURANCE. tHAT DOES NOT INCLUDE dRUGS STORES HOSPITAL WE NEED IN SURANCE AND MUST SHOW. How is this U>S> doing the cencus that is for americans that are legal where does the bottom line on figures come when there are illegals.

so wound up forgot to say if LAW ENFORCEMENT refuses they took an oath of office if they continue a slow down of enforcent put them on METER patrol. just like the mailman rain or shine wish the ARIZONA Govt. the best DO NOT BACK DOWN maybe NEW YORK will follow not with these LIBERALS they could be gone at the next election